The DIVINE FEMININE & Church Competency
The topic of competency in ordering the female role in Church (ordaining) came up in another strand, but it seems right to consider female "priesthood" as a matter deserving undistracted attention in a strand of its own.
While we may look upon the life of Mother Theresa of Calcutta — tortured throughout with doubt — with sadness and compassion, she is for all her agony a more powerfully redemptive exemplar. Like men, women must personally develop and follow their personal consciences.
I have given a lot of thought to women and "ordination". My reflections on the life of Mother Theresa have affected my thinking. I've now come to the point of view that Pope John Paul II (perhaps inadvertently and not intentionally) acknowledged the defect of male incompetency as to ordination as practiced in the Roman Catholic Church, vis-a-vis competency to ordain women.
Because institutional Catholicism is cultured in male sexism, the exclusivist male hierarchy does in fact lack competency in the matter of “ordering” women; when Pope Benedict XVI observed that "women will find their way (in Church)", he was speaking in awareness of male incompetency. It is not for males to tell females their way with respect to "ordination" and their roles in life; in Church; with respect to priesthood; with respect to anything. It's for women to determine the forms their "ordination" and priesthood must take, and they need on their own to define these roles without coercion from misdirected male dominion. Women can do better than contort intuition to conform to the unenlightened, exclusionary male model.
Female conscience is sensitively different than male. Females come to sensitivity in personally original ways. As nurturer, female conscience is inclined naturally to be more “green” (organically aware) than male. I think no pope would be so rash and irrational as to excommunicate women en masse for their conscionable forming, informing and reforming of faith consciousness.
The present experience in Church of the steep decline of males choosing priesthood as a way of life is creating the need for women to come forward. The sex scandals of hierarchy are speeding the process and deepening the need. It can be expected that communities will more and more solicit female priests to come to their rescue precisely because of demonstrated male incompetency.
I REALLY EXPECT AND HOPE TO SEE IN MY LIFETIME women moving ahead on their own toward their own self-determination as to the priestly role they need to assume within the Church and not be frightened off by the cultured wizardry of males. Only by doing this will their voice acquire an equal standing and bring healing to the Church — to civilizations — what is divine ordination.
Church is destined to function ineffectively, even self-injuriously as long as it stymies female authenticity and essential female expression within the human family. I grieve the lifelong suffering of Mother Theresa from male clerical super-arrogation and the suffering of the People of God from sexist alienation.
"Death comes to us through a
"Death comes to us through a woman"? Huh? Does that interpretation of life's mysteries not suggest to you that some man is being a bit self-serving? No, not St. Augustine?
But one of things that is quite TRUE, is that one can be a saint and one can think that women are not fully human. Interesting slant on the world, no?
"Do not let your hearts be
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God. Trust in Me." Jesus
I pray that people are not offended by what I say, but it comes after praying on the Little Office of Mary for a couple of years. This is what I have to say, "In persona Christi, I see Mary."
It was St. Augustine who taught us that Mary "was more blessed in her discipleship than in her motherhood."
In praying and meditating on the Stations of the Cross in Fr. Hardon's, "Catholic Prayer Book," it came to me. The crown of perfection on Mary's virtues. The 12 virtues of Judaism, The 12 stars of her crown, The 12 tribes of Judah. She held the body and blood in her hands with a full understanding of what it meant, an understanding which was lacking at the time of the Last Supper.
"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord. My spirit rejoices in God my Savior. For He has looked with favor on His lowly servant."
The crown of perfection: the perfect union of God and man.
I believe these things will work themselves out. In persona Christi, I see Mary, and I believe others see it too. Pray for our Church that good decisions may always be made.
As the Lord says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled..."
May God Bless all of you. Amen.
This is a very beautiful
This is a very beautiful meditation. I would just ad that not only did she hold the body and blood in her hands (and in her uterus), she changed bread and wine into His body and blood. Her eucharist.
The value, importance and
The value, importance and worth of Women as demonstrated by Jesus.
We must look at Scripture critically trying to get the deepest understanding we can of God’s word. The historical conditions at the time. The attitudes of the cultures toward women, and the momentous actions taken by Jesus in his just treatment and interaction with women in the face of these cultural taboos. It is no small thing to take all these things into account when we consider the meaning and purpose of Jesus’ actions and teachings in regards to how they take place with the women who were the objects or recipients of these actions and teachings.
Mark and Matthew write these next two passages of the same occurrence. Remember according to the Catholic historical analysis of the writings in the NT in the NAB, Mark wrote his Gospel first then Matthew and Luke most likely with a copy of Mark’s gospel for reference amplified his writings with their accounts and perspectives of what took place in the Life of Jesus.
Mt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went from that place and withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, "Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon."
23 But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, "Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us."
24 He said in reply, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But the woman came and did him homage, saying, "Lord, help me."
26 He said in reply, "It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs."
27 She said, "Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters."
28 Then Jesus said to her in reply, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that hour.
Mk7:24-30
24 From that place he went off to the district of Tyre. He entered a house and wanted no one to know about it, but he could not escape notice.
25 Soon a woman whose daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him. She came and fell at his feet.
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth, and she begged him to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27 He said to her, "Let the children be fed first. For it is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs."
28 She replied and said to him, "Lord, even the dogs under the table eat the children's scraps."
29 Then he said to her, "For saying this, you may go. The demon has gone out of your daughter."
30 When the woman went home, she found the child lying in bed and the demon gone.
In terms of the discussion of this thread, there are several important aspects as in regard to the treatment of women in that time. Notice how Mark is pretty straight forward. He doesn’t dress his account up a lot with an expression of his attitude. He just “tells it like it is”, so to speak. Matthew on the other hand, demonstrates a strong Jewish upbringing and attitude towards women, in verses 23-24. BUT that serves as an excellent contrast to Jesus’ grace and just consideration of women, his attitude towards women flys in the face of Jewish tradition, in the fact that He responds to this women with respect and grants her petition because of her intelligent sincere and faithful response.
So what is God’s message to us in this interaction?
Women are deserving of just consideration and their intelligent and sincere responses to life’s situations deserve recognition.
It’s such an important lesson!
In light of the mistreatment, repression and under appreciation of women’s input into solving the problems of the world, it’s MORE OF A MIRICLE that we have “ears that hear” and “eyes that see”, this important lesson Jesus left us on the VALUE of woman’s “genius”, as Pope John Paul II referred to it, than the actual healing of the woman’s daughter. That healing did exemplify the importance of listening to women!
These next excerpts are from Mt. and Lk on the same occurrence. We spoke a little of Matthew and Mark here’s a brief excerpt from the Vatican site on LUKE.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PWJ.HTM
Throughout the gospel, Luke calls upon the Christian disciple to identify with the master Jesus, who is caring and tender toward the poor and lowly, the outcast, the sinner, and the afflicted, toward all those who recognize their dependence on God, but who is severe toward the proud and self-righteous, and particularly toward those who place their material wealth before the service of God and his people No gospel writer is more concerned than Luke with the mercy and compassion of Jesus. No gospel writer is more concerned with the role of the Spirit in the life of Jesus and the Christian disciple, with the importance of, or with Jesus' concern for women.
Because of these attributes of Luke, he might be said to be the Progressive or Liberal of his time. I would say of the NT writers he was the one that was most in touch with his feminine side. And it shows in the richness and content of his writing.
Mt 26:6-13
6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
7 a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, "Why this waste?
9 It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor."
10 Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, "Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me.
11 The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me.
12 In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
13 Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her."
Lk7:36-50
36 A Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he entered the Pharisee's house and reclined at table.
37 Now there was a sinful woman in the city who learned that he was at table in the house of the Pharisee. Bringing an alabaster flask of ointment,
38 she stood behind him at his feet weeping and began to bathe his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner."
40 Jesus said to him in reply, "Simon, I have something to say to you." "Tell me, teacher," he said.
41 "Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days' wages and the other owed fifty.
42 Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both. Which of them will love him more?"
43 Simon said in reply, "The one, I suppose, whose larger debt was forgiven." He said to him, "You have judged rightly."
44 Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give me water for my feet, but she has bathed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45 You did not give me a kiss, but she has not ceased kissing my feet since the time I entered.
46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with ointment.
47 So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little."
48 He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49 The others at table said to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
50 But he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Do you see how rich Luke’s version is compared to Matthews? Matthew being the devote Jew that he was may have had reservations about displaying a Master who would resort to lowering himself to the level of conversing, admiring and defending such a woman as this. He may have been embarrassed by the fact that Simon, a Pharisee (A Jewish person in a position of respect) was reprimanded as he was by Jesus. So Matthew portrayed him as a Leper. While Luke not being Jewish had no such reservations I believe gave a much more honest and detailed account of the incident.
Again the importance of Jesus’ actions while quite embarrassing to his Apostles are very important to us today in terms of respect of woman. Jesus so often taught that God was no respecter of weather a person was a man or a woman. And because of their cultural upbringing this must have been a very difficult thing for the Apostles to accept. As a matter of fact evidence indicates that they reverted back to their customs soon after Jesus’’ ascended into heaven.
Now this next short excerpt I find so very important. And it is significant in that as far as I know it only appears in Luke. It’s important because it’s the only indication of a possible scenario of a women’s type of Apostolic group like that indicated in the story I shared with my sister. Several things in the story are supported here by biblical text. I would be curious to see if in the formation of the current bible at the Council of Nicea similar texts where destroyed or discarded.
Lk8:1-3 very important
1 Afterward he journeyed from one town and village to another, preaching and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. Accompanying him were the Twelve
2 and some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,
3 Joanna, the wife of Herod's steward Chuza, Susanna, and many others who provided for them out of their resources.
So we see as Jesus traveled with the apostles from town to town preaching and proclaiming the good news of God. THE WOMEN WERE WITH THEM possibly DOING THE SAME THING.. And you see three of the 12 women mentioned in the story here as well as MANY OTHERS (WOMEN) and you see as it said in the story that THEY SUPPORTED THEMSELVES.
This small obscure seldom referred to part of the bible that is perhaps the BIGGEST OUTRIGHT INDICATOR of a WOMEN’S CORP THAT traveled and WORKED WITH JESUS furthering the kingdom of heaven in the world.
And that’s not counting what the male dominated hierarchy of the Church left out!
Check out these next scriptures of Mark and Luke on another occurance.
Mk 5:25-34
25 There was a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years.
26 She had suffered greatly at the hands of many doctors and had spent all that she had. Yet she was not helped but only grew worse.
27 She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak.
28 She said, "If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured."
29 Immediately her flow of blood dried up. She felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction.
30 Jesus, aware at once that power had gone out from him, turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who has touched my clothes?"
31 But his disciples said to him, "You see how the crowd is pressing upon you, and yet you ask, 'Who touched me?'"
32 And he looked around to see who had done it.
33 The woman, realizing what had happened to her, approached in fear and trembling. She fell down before Jesus and told him the whole truth.
34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace and be cured of your affliction."
Lk8:41-56
41 And a man named Jairus, an official of the synagogue, came forward. He fell at the feet of Jesus and begged him to come to his house,
42 because he had an only daughter, about twelve years old, and she was dying. As he went, the crowds almost crushed him.
43 And a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years, who (had spent her whole livelihood on doctors and) was unable to be cured by anyone,
44 came up behind him and touched the tassel on his cloak. Immediately her bleeding stopped.
45 Jesus then asked, "Who touched me?" While all were denying it, Peter said, "Master, the crowds are pushing and pressing in upon you."
46 But Jesus said, "Someone has touched me; for I know that power has gone out from me."
47 When the woman realized that she had not escaped notice, she came forward trembling. Falling down before him, she explained in the presence of all the people why she had touched him and how she had been healed immediately.
48 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has saved you; go in peace."
49 While he was still speaking, someone from the synagogue official's house arrived and said, "Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer."
50 On hearing this, Jesus answered him, "Do not be afraid; just have faith and she will be saved."
51 When he arrived at the house he allowed no one to enter with him except Peter and John and James, and the child's father and mother.
52 All were weeping and mourning for her, when he said, "Do not weep any longer, for she is not dead, but sleeping."
53 And they ridiculed him, because they knew that she was dead.
54 But he took her by the hand and called to her, "Child, arise!"
55 Her breath returned and she immediately arose. He then directed that she should be given something to eat.
56 Her parents were astounded, and he instructed them to tell no one what had happened.
I like the complimenting honesty and detail that Mark and Luke provide on this woman of great faith. One thing that the church has failed to emphasize that DIDN”T escape the notice of Jesus was the tremendous FAITH the women followers have in Jesus. I think there is a great Charism in a woman’s faith that we as men cannot grasp. And it is something very powerful and very healing. And I believe this feminine aspect of God that women possess will be pivotal in healing the world of it’s terrible ills in the near future as women define, determine and contribute their gift to the world. As Pope John Paul II anticipated his letter:
“The present reflections, now at an end, have sought to recognize, within the "gift of God", what he, as Creator and Redeemer, entrusts to women, to every woman. In the Spirit of Christ, in fact, women can discover the entire meaning of their femininity and thus be disposed to making a "sincere gift of self" to others, thereby finding themselves.”
O.K. I’m running out of time. Let me do one more. This one many of us are familiar with.
Lk10:38-42
38 As they continued their journey he entered a village where a woman whose name was Martha welcomed him.
39 She had a sister named Mary (who) sat beside the Lord at his feet listening to him speak.
40 Martha, burdened with much serving, came to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me by myself to do the serving? Tell her to help me."
41 The Lord said to her in reply, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and worried about many things.
42 There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her."
Can you see how Christ emphasizes the importance of women’s self-determination…even among themselves?
Martha gets caught up in the male dominated definition of a woman’s role, like so many women of today do, and she’s upset because her sister Mary isn’t helping her in the kitchen and leaving all the work of waiting on people to Martha. Mary’s right up front next to Jesus knowing his Love (God type love) for her and with a sincere desire to hear his teaching. Jesus gently gives Martha and all of us today a little chiding because of our failure to value our spiritual advancement more than our work ethic. And to women to be tolerant of those women whose calling from God is to do more than is currently acceptable by the male dominated hierarchy of the Church.
I mean Gosh, it’s real clear to me, and I’m sure many others here of the Lucan persuasion, but can any of our traditional conservatives see it?
There’s much more in the NT that I believe validates today’s need of feminine expression and women’s efforts to take a more prominent role in the World and the Church. I’ll get to that in another post…God Willing. :-)
God Bless and Guide all who read and participate in this thread. Amen.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
Part II “The value,
Part II “The value, importance and worth of Women as demonstrated by Jesus.”
Following this theme, within the context of this thread “The DIVINE FEMININE & Church Competency”, I have a some more biblical texts that demonstrate Jesus’ expressed value on the importance of women and the feminine contribution to the Church.
Lk13:11-21-
11 And a woman was there who for eighteen years had been crippled by a spirit; she was bent over, completely incapable of standing erect.
12 When Jesus saw her, he called to her and said, "Woman, you are set free of your infirmity."
13 He laid his hands on her, and she at once stood up straight and glorified God.
14 But the leader of the synagogue, indignant that Jesus had cured on the sabbath, said to the crowd in reply, "There are six days when work should be done. Come on those days to be cured, not on the sabbath day."
15 The Lord said to him in reply, "Hypocrites! Does not each one of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his ass from the manger and lead it out for watering?
16 This daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound for eighteen years now, ought she not to have been set free on the sabbath day from this bondage?"
17 When he said this, all his adversaries were humiliated; and the whole crowd rejoiced at all the splendid deeds done by him.
18 Then he said, "What is the kingdom of God like? To what can I compare it?
19 It is like a mustard seed that a person took and planted in the garden. When it was fully grown, it became a large bush and 'the birds of the sky dwelt in its branches.'"
20 Again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God?
21 It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed (in) with three measures of wheat flour until the whole batch of dough was leavened."
Now in this excerpt from Luke there are several important aspects in regards to the importance the role that women will play in the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth in the hearts of Humankind. Again we have a woman’s Faith. Jesus moved by this ailing woman’s’ faith in him cures her of her aliment. But he also uses this action to cure MEN of their Hypocrisy. He faces then with the reality of their litheness. Surely they would save their ox or ass BUT would let this woman suffer unto death! NOT LIFTING A HAND TO HELP HER. And in this example using Crystallized DOGMA, DOCTRINE and TRADITION as their excuse.
There is no excuse for their callous behavior toward the ailing condition of this woman or toward women in general. Jesus reminds these sallow minded MEN, SHE IS A DUAGHTER OF ABRAHAM. He uses Abraham because he is so revered by these men as Father of the chosen people of GOD. What Jesus could’ve told them but it wouldn’t have done any good due to the conditions and perceptions of MEN at the time., was that this woman IS A DAUGHTER OF GOD. How can we today be so shallow as to treat women as anything BUT THAT?
Though they are humiliated by the smallness of their words and actions. Jesus continues to demonstrate the VALUE of Women to them by comparing the establishment of the KINGDOM OF GOD with a WOMEN’S WORK. The yeast in His example is WOMEN’S FAITH and the three measures of wheat is HUMANITY and by the addition of WOMEN’S FAITH through WOMEN’S WORK, all of Humanity will be ELEVATED to the level of KINGDOM of GOD.
And what we as men have promoted is the example of the mustered seed as faith totally over looking the example of women putting faith into action that Jesus gave us. Well boys it’s been two thousand years! It’s time to bite the bullet and give women their just due. Just as Jesus taught us. Bless their Faith and Bless their Work and lets join together in respect of their self-professed, self determined and willing acceptance of their God Willed position in the healing of the world.
So to continue you all remember this next story in the NT right? These same men trying to trip Jesus up. Again using the “OLD LAW” and an example of a woman trying to trip him up to condemn him. But his words of truth foil their weak attempts again.
Lk 20:33-40
33 Now at the resurrection whose wife will that woman be? For all seven had been married to her."
34 Jesus said to them, "The children of this age marry and remarry;
35 but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36 They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise.
37 That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called 'Lord' the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38 and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
39 Some of the scribes said in reply, "Teacher, you have answered well."
40 And they no longer dared to ask him anything.
Notice how Jesus teaches them that MARRIAGE is of this world BUT has nothing to do in the next.. Those “(spiritually) worthy” of the NEXT world will be resurrected there all as children of GOD WITHOUT REGARD OF GENDER. Why can’t the church see the truth imparted in this lesson of Jesus, in regards to PRIESTS, MARRIAGE AND WOMAN? It doesn’t matter if they are married, it doesn’t matter if they’re men or women, IT MATTERS IF THEY ARE “(SPIRITUALLY WORTHY”! Jesus said, “for they are like angels; and they are the children of God… and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for TO HIM (GOD) ALL ARE ALIVE.”
Sorry I didn’t me to SHOUT. I just get so emotional when I think that people might not be able to see or worse yet ACCEPT these truths as Jesus taught them.
This next one by John raises a question in my mind. Will women impose upon God to bring peace to the world? In this story Mary imposes upon Jesus to help with the problem of there being no wine, to perform his first miracle. Jesus demonstrates this imposition upon him of his Mother when he says, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." So often we’ve been taught by Jesus that Our Father is moved to action by prayer. Now he demonstrates this in living action when petitioned by A WOMAN to begin Hid Public Career of Service and Teaching of the Father. Is it really prudent to ignore this fact of the POWER OF WOMEN to influence God with their FEMININE FAITH and WILLINGNESS to petition for HELP.
Jn 2:1-11
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2 Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.
3 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
4 (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."
5 His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
6 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it.
9 And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom
10 and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."
11 Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.
This one I believe is perhaps one of the most recognized teachings of Jesus about the value, importance and worth of Women. Just so so many lessons in the story.
Here’s a few of Jesus’ lessons I can see.
1. She is Samaritan – God is not concerned with your nationality or religious creed
2. She a women – No respecter of gender.
3. Salvation is offered to ALL – the water of eternal life.
4. The offer of eternal life is for sinners – (her 5 husbands)
5. True Worship is not held in a place or with a specific religion – it is done “in Sprit and Truth” And God’s wants us to worship God like that.
6. Jesus will teach us the truth and the way.
7. And perhaps this is the most important thing about the story in terms of this thread, THE WOMEN brought her people to Jesus and the WATER OF ETERNAL LIFE. It should be significant to us that JESUS choose a WOMAN of an alien nationality, alien religion, questionable character, no special position, BUT with curiosity and a desire to receive and know the truth to bring this message of GOD to her people.
Jn 4:7-42
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give me a drink."
8 His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "How can you, a Jew, ask me, a Samaritan woman, for a drink?" (For Jews use nothing in common with Samaritans.)
10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God and who is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11 (The woman) said to him, "Sir, you do not even have a bucket and the cistern is deep; where then can you get this living water?
12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us this cistern and drank from it himself with his children and his flocks?"
13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again;
14 but whoever drinks the water I shall give will never thirst; the water I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water, so that I may not be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water."
16 Jesus said to her, "Go call your husband and come back."
17 The woman answered and said to him, "I do not have a husband." Jesus answered her, "You are right in saying, 'I do not have a husband.'
18 For you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true."
19 The woman said to him, "Sir, I can see that you are a prophet.
20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain; but you people say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem."
21 Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."
25 The woman said to him, "I know that the Messiah is coming, the one called the Anointed; when he comes, he will tell us everything."
26 Jesus said to her, "I am he, the one who is speaking with you."
27 At that moment his disciples returned, and were amazed that he was talking with a woman, but still no one said, "What are you looking for?" or "Why are you talking with her?"
28 The woman left her water jar and went into the town and said to the people,
29 "Come see a man who told me everything I have done. Could he possibly be the Messiah?"
30 They went out of the town and came to him.
31 Meanwhile, the disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat."
32 But he said to them, "I have food to eat of which you do not know."
33
So the disciples said to one another, "Could someone have brought him something to eat?"
34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of the one who sent me and to finish his work.
35 Do you not say, 'In four months the harvest will be here'? I tell you, look up and see the fields ripe for the harvest.
36 The reaper is already receiving his payment and gathering crops for eternal life, so that the sower and reaper can rejoice together.
37 For here the saying is verified that 'One sows and another reaps.'
38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for; others have done the work, and you are sharing the fruits of their work."
39 Many of the Samaritans of that town began to believe in him because of the word of the woman who testified, "He told me everything I have done."
40 When the Samaritans came to him, they invited him to stay with them; and he stayed there two days.
41 Many more began to believe in him because of his word,
42 and they said to the woman, "We no longer believe because of your word; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the savior of the world."
Well here we go again in this next familiar story. You (the men of that time) want to trap Jesus in that day and time. You know he treats women with a respect and consideration that wasn’t appropriate for that time. You want something serious to ensnare him with. Let’s stone a woman. The crowds ought to really go for that. So here she comes setup and caught in adultery, what about the MAN who was involved. OH Yeah that was two thousands year ago or is it also today in many countries in the world? So Jesus faces the guys and embarrasses them into dropping their stones and leaving. And then talks to the woman in a healing and non-condemning non-judgmental way. HE TEACHES US THE JUST CONSIDERATION WOMEN DEASERVE. And we men and some women are still having a hard time getting that.
Jn 8:3-11
3 Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle.
4 They said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.
5 Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"
6 They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger.
7 But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again he bent down and wrote on the ground.
9 And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him.
10 Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11 She replied, "No one, sir." Then Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more."
God Bless ALL the women of the world. Jesus uses women again to as an allegory to demonstrate the pain and agony we must experience before the joy of seeing God makes us forget that pain. What a blessing for women to recognized so much by Jesus while they are so taken for granted by so many in the world. What a shame. Perhaps we can become more supportive of the awesomeness of their being in faith and action.
Jn 16:21-23
21 When a woman is in labor, she is in anguish because her hour has arrived; but when she has given birth to a child, she no longer remembers the pain because of her joy that a child has been born into the world.
22 So you also are now in anguish. But I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.
23 On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.
Next. Woman loved Jesus as Jesus loved them. In His time of Crisis and need the women were there for him. His Best Bud John showed up and he impressed on John the importance of women as in Motherhood. How often do we forget to honor God the Mother as represented in God’s creation of the women in our lives and in our world? Jesus didn’t only leave this message for John and Mary, it was for us also. When woman leaders as mothers of the world tell us men leaders to put down our toys (weapons of war and war itself) and make peace with one another, Will we respect them as our Mother, drop our guns and shake hands and make up?
Jn 19:25-27
25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.
26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son."
27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.
Why did Jesus appear to women before men? Again to signify to us today their importance, value and worth in our lives and our world today. God Bless women for their love and compassion. May we are share in this gift.
Jn 20:11-18
11 But Mary stayed outside the tomb weeping. And as she wept, she bent over into the tomb
12 and saw two angels in white sitting there, one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been.
13 And they said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "They have taken my Lord, and I don't know where they laid him."
14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus there, but did not know it was Jesus.
15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?" She thought it was the gardener and said to him, "Sir, if you carried him away, tell me where you laid him, and I will take him."
16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rabbouni," which means Teacher.
17
Jesus said to her, "Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
18 Mary of Magdala went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and what he told her.
Why is the Church referred to in the Feminine in This next revelation? To signify the importance of the Feminine in the "Eyes of God". And the value of the "Feminine" to those of us on Earth. Men listen to Women with "New Ears" and "See Women with New Eyes". “I will make all things New”.
Rev 19:7-8
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready.
8 She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
It was Martha who said,
It was Martha who said, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
When simon said that Jesus made him Peter. Perhaps Martha is Petra, the rock that has been sustaining the church for 2,000 years.
Sylvester~ Within, I hope,
Sylvester~ Within, I hope, respect for your position and agreement with you, a point: your proposition of "male incompetency" to ordain women has cogency on a number of levels. I see your intent, but your apparent assumption that the clerical hierarchy 'is' the church doesn't hold for me. You are right, they are 'the authority' but we, all of us, are church and should have and should somehow stand for the right of womens' access to the entire spectrum of church roles. Yes, women should have the right to choose, but all have the responsibility to render that right accessible and respect it.
'Authority' should have been made to bend to righteous action when they refuse (exercising male incompetency)~ some have spoken but too few have listened (to paraphrase). Simplistic rationalization and deep-seated misogyny embedded within centuries old self-declaration of divine right is a hard nut to crack.
Women bring healing to the
Women bring healing to the Church,
Sylvester, Thank You for this wonderful post. I just recently posted something similar on the Slow Talk Thread in response to an AnnieO/B7M8 discussion.
Here’s part of an email I shared with my sister Sara around 2004. I've noticed now that some of the things Pope John Paul II mentioned even before that about woman’s self determination and their “grace” is also mentioned here in my comments. Sara’s comments are in brackets. The initial story I sent her is in quotes. My comments have nothing around them.
“Of all the daring things which Jesus did in connection with his earth career, the most amazing was his sudden announcement on the evening of January 16: "On the morrow we will set apart ten women for the ministering work of the kingdom." At the beginning of the two weeks' period during which the apostles and the evangelists were to be absent from Bethsaida on their furlough, Jesus requested David to summon his parents back to their home and to dispatch messengers calling to Bethsaida ten devout women who had served in the administration of the former encampment and the tented infirmary. These women had all listened to the instruction given the young evangelists, but it had never occurred to either themselves or their teachers that Jesus would dare to commission women to teach the gospel of the kingdom and minister to the sick.”
How about the following? Wouldn't it make sense that women from the families that Jesus was close too also followed and listened and learned his teachings? Wouldn't it make sense that if Simon Peter and his brother Andrew the first two apostles had a sister that she might follow Jesus too after hearing him and knowing him? Or the sister-in-law of his brother Jude of the epistle in the New Testament? Or the cousin of Doubting Thomas? Or the daughter of Matthew? Or the daughter of a roman centurion like the one at the cross who became a follower of Christ after seeing him die? Or if Joseph of Arimathea had a daughter wouldn't it be believable that she could follow in her father's foot steps and be a follower of Christ? Or even Mary Magdalene, who's gospel has been found recently, and the fact she is not recognized as a apostle has recently come under suspicion of being a fabrication of the feminine oppressive Dogmatic Patriarchy of the Early Church who decided what writings would be put in the Bible and which would be discarded. Is it possible that records of the women disciples were suppressed or discarded? Joe
“These ten women selected and commissioned by Jesus were: Susanna, the daughter of the former chazan of the Nazareth synagogue; Joanna, the wife of Chuza, the steward of Herod Antipas; Elizabeth, the daughter of a wealthy Jew of Tiberias and Sepphoris; Martha, the elder sister of Andrew and Peter; Rachel, the sister-in-law of Jude, the Master's brother in the flesh; Nasanta, the daughter of Elman, the Syrian physician; Milcha, a cousin of the Apostle Thomas; Ruth, the eldest daughter of Matthew Levi; Celta, the daughter of a Roman centurion; and Agaman, a widow of Damascus. Subsequently, Jesus added two other women to this group--Mary Magdalene and Rebecca, the daughter of Joseph of Arimathea. “
12 women...interesting. joe
“ Jesus authorized these women to effect their own organization and directed Judas to provide funds for their equipment and for pack animals. The ten elected Susanna as their chief and Joanna as their treasurer. From this time on they furnished their own funds; never again did they draw upon Judas for support.”
“It was most astounding in that day, when women were not even allowed on the main floor of the synagogue (being confined to the women's gallery), to behold them being recognized as authorized teachers of the new gospel of the kingdom. The charge which Jesus gave these ten women as he set them apart for gospel teaching and ministry was the emancipation proclamation which set free all women and for all time; no more was man to look upon woman as his spiritual inferior. This was a decided shock to even the twelve apostles. Notwithstanding they had many times heard the Master say that "in the kingdom of heaven there is neither rich nor poor, free nor bond, male nor female, all are equally the sons and daughters of God," they were literally stunned when he proposed formally to commission these ten women as religious teachers and even to permit their traveling about with them. The whole country was stirred up by this proceeding, the enemies of Jesus making great capital out of this move, but everywhere the women believers in the good news stood staunchly behind their chosen sisters and voiced no uncertain approval of this tardy acknowledgment of woman's place in religious work. And this liberation of women, giving them due recognition, was practiced by the apostles immediately after the Master's departure, albeit they fell back to the olden customs in subsequent generations. Throughout the early days of the Christian church women teachers and ministers were called deaconesses and were accorded general recognition. But Paul, despite the fact that he conceded all this in theory, never really incorporated it into his own attitude and personally found it difficult to carry out in practice.”
How about that Sara. You told me women religious should be called "deaconesses". Could it be possible in the 2000 years since Jesus was here, someone else may have had the same or similar thoughts? Joe
“ As the apostolic party journeyed from Bethsaida, the women traveled in the rear. During the conference time they always sat in a group in front and to the right of the speaker. Increasingly, women had become believers in the gospel of the kingdom, and it had been a source of much difficulty and no end of embarrassment when they had desired to hold personal converse with Jesus or one of the apostles. Now all this was changed. When any of the women believers desired to see the Master or confer with the apostles, they went to Susanna, and in company with one of the twelve women evangelists, they would go at once into the presence of the Master or one of his apostles.”
“ It was at Magdala that the women first demonstrated their usefulness and vindicated the wisdom of their choosing. Andrew had imposed rather strict rules upon his associates about doing personal work with women, especially with those of questionable character. When the party entered Magdala, these ten women evangelists were free to enter the evil resorts and preach the glad tidings directly to all their inmates. And when visiting the sick, these women were able to draw very close in their ministry to their afflicted sisters. As the result of the ministry of these ten women (afterward known as the twelve women) at this place, Mary Magdalene was won for the kingdom. Through a succession of misfortunes and in consequence of the attitude of reputable society toward women who commit such errors of judgment, this woman had found herself in one of the nefarious resorts of Magdala. It was Martha and Rachel who made plain to Mary that the doors of the kingdom were open to even such as she. Mary believed the good news and was baptized by Peter the next day.”
Would a man of that time do that? Enter into a house of ill repute to save a woman? Joe
“ Mary Magdalene became the most effective teacher of the gospel among this group of twelve women evangelists. She was set apart for such service, together with Rebecca, at Jotapata about four weeks subsequent to her conversion. Mary and Rebecca, with the others of this group, went on through the remainder of Jesus' life on earth, laboring faithfully and effectively for the enlightenment and uplifting of their downtrodden sisters; and when the last and tragic episode in the drama of Jesus' life was being enacted, notwithstanding the apostles all fled but one, these women were all present, and not one either denied or betrayed him.”
“ The Sabbath services of the apostolic party had been put in the hands of the women by Andrew, upon instructions from Jesus. This meant, of course, that they could not be held in the new synagogue. The women selected Joanna to have charge of this occasion, and the meeting was held in the banquet room of Herod's new palace, Herod being away in residence at Julias in Perea. Joanna read from the Scriptures concerning woman's work in the religious life of Israel, making reference to Miriam, Deborah, Esther, and others.”
How often do we hear men teach that? Joe
“ One evening at Shunem, after John's apostles had returned to Hebron, and after Jesus' apostles had been sent out two and two, when the Master was engaged in teaching a group of twelve of the younger evangelists who were laboring under the direction of Jacob, together with the twelve women, Rachel asked Jesus this question: "Master, what shall we answer when women ask us, What shall I do to be saved?" When Jesus heard this question, he answered:
"When men and women ask what shall we do to be saved, you shall answer, Believe this gospel of the kingdom; accept divine forgiveness. By faith recognize the indwelling spirit of God, [this is SHEKINAH and "Whose" should be capitalized]whose acceptance makes you[a member of the mystical body of Christ] a son of God . Have you not read in the Scriptures where it says, `In the Lord have I righteousness and strength' Also where the Father says, `My righteousness is near; my salvation has gone forth, and my arms shall enfold my people.' `My soul shall be joyful in the love of my God, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation and has covered me with the robe of his righteousness.' Have you not also read of the Father that his name `shall be called the Lord our righteousness.' `Take away the filthy rags of self-righteousness and clothe my son with the robe of divine righteousness and eternal salvation.' It is forever true, `the just shall live by faith.' Entrance into the Father's kingdom is wholly free, but progress--growth in grace--is essential to continuance therein.”
It's for women to shed the grace of the Divine Feminine Aspects God. It's time for the world to be healed by the feminine graces, and only women tell and show us what those graces are. That's what Card. Ratzinger is missing, the feminine definition of the collaboration of women within the Church. Go Sisters! Joe
“ When Jesus had left off speaking, there was great rejoicing among those who had heard these gracious words, and they all went on in the days that followed proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom with new power and with renewed energy and enthusiasm. And the women rejoiced all the more to know they were included in these plans for the establishment of the kingdom on earth.”
Doesn't this make sense? Doesn't it seem unusual that we don't hear more things like this about the woman in the Church? Well maybe not that unusual when you consider the 2000 years of Male dominance in the Church. Even taking that into consideration you would assume there must of been some type of discardment of a portion of the history of women in the Church based on how little Church History of women followers and their contributions that exists unto today. Joe
“ At the evening discussions Jesus talked upon many subjects. During the remainder of this tour--before they all reunited at Nazareth--he discussed "The Love of God," "Dreams and Visions," "Malice," "Humility and Meekness," "Courage and Loyalty," "Music and Worship," "Service and Obedience," "Pride and Presumption," "Forgiveness in Relation to Repentance," "Peace and Perfection," "Evil Speaking and Envy," "Evil, Sin, and Temptation," "Doubts and Unbelief," "Wisdom and Worship." With the older apostles away, these younger groups of both men and women more freely entered into these discussions with the Master.”
“ After spending two or three days with one group of twelve evangelists, Jesus would move on to join another group, being informed as to the whereabouts and movements of all these workers by David's messengers. This being their first tour, the women remained much of the time with Jesus. Through the messenger service each of these groups was kept fully informed concerning the progress of the tour, and the receipt of news from other groups was always a source of encouragement to these scattered and separated workers.”
So that was it Sylvester. That’s the email from 3 years ago or so, when the current Pope was still a cardinal. What I was referring to when I said he got it wrong was his letter on the role of men and women in the church. But I find it interesting that some of the things you mention in this post, we were talking about then. And we still are. I’m currently looking over scripture about women in the bible. Because I’m sure if I remember it right, it will reflect an attitude by Jesus towards women that could make a story like this believable as a possibility of the role women had in Jesus’ time. And historically speaking in terms of men’s attitudes toward women it would be believable that stories like these were either never written or conveniently lost by the time the Bible was complied 375 years or so after Jesus’ physical death.
God’s blessings be with you Sylvester and us all. Amen :-)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
The damage of Eve’s
The damage of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary.
As St Augustine wrote,
"there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both"
(Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours
2 Thess 2:15
---
Grunt